Talk:Gate Knight (3.5e Class)
Wizard-Level? No way this is wizard-level, I consider the Sorcerer the lowest tier of the wizard-level, and this class cannot match one in almost anyway. I would reconsider it ranking to rogue, I would like to hear the reasoning behind this article wizardness. --Leziad 00:57, October 12, 2009 (UTC) : I'd normally agree for the majority of the class, but things like Gate, Etherealness, Imprisonment, and a few others that can basically be used at will push it over to the wizard level. --Ghostwheel 01:13, October 12, 2009 (UTC) ::It needs to be wizard level for its entire lifespan then...in this case it needs a bit of assistance to clear up the confusion of just what this class is trying to be. Surgo 01:56, October 12, 2009 (UTC) ::: A single wizard-trick don't make a class wizard level. We need to go overall. I think this class is aimed toward Rogue-level. --Leziad 02:17, October 12, 2009 (UTC) :::: IMO, the "wizard" level is marked by an increasing amount of departure from the usual game that most characters play, and enters the realm of rocket tag and boning reality up the backside. The "single trick" allows one to force enemies to make saves or effectively be removed from the field (rocket tag) and to summon ancient celestial gold wyrms (boning reality up the backside). If this class is meant to be rogue-level, it shouldn't have these abilities. If they were removed I could see it being rogue-level, but as-is those abilities don't fit in with the level of balance the rest of the class possesses. --Ghostwheel 02:53, October 12, 2009 (UTC) ::::: Which is nothing compared to what an actual wizard-level class can do, also these abilities, I agreed are worrying. Also the wizard level entry requirement should be like: beating all (or most) encounters of the SGT or fight and win againt an optimized sorcerer. Something I don't think this class can do. --Leziad 03:15, October 12, 2009 (UTC) :::::: Step 1: Go ethereal. Step 2: Spy on your enemies from underground. Step 3: Go to a decent location. Step 4: Summon a dozen or so ancient celestial gold wyrms. Step 5: ????? Step 6: Profit. :::::: I think most encounters could be beaten that way. --Ghostwheel 03:24, October 12, 2009 (UTC) ::::::: I'm staying quiet until the debate is reaching a more solid conclusion on where it stands, but in regards to it's high level wizard tricks, a possible solution simply exists in upping the cost. High level tricks, while at will, are also limited by "how much hp do you want to risk". If the rick is deemed too small, I'll just up the cost, invoking Con damage if needed. Though, in reply to Gate in particular I have not known even wizards to spam that spell, it's always been a big just in case spell due to the 1000 XP per pop (Gate Knight has this too). For the imprisonment, by that time I'm ok with save and dies, but I'll leave this more up to debate. ::::::: Continue! -- Eiji Hyrule 03:25, October 12, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::So, are you sitting this out because you don't really care about the balance point it gets Eiji? It would be nice to know what you intended the balance point to be so we can direct criticism at getting it to that point. Fix up the lower level stuff to make it consistent wizard, or cut back on the high end stuff and make it consistent rogue... we can argue all day about doing these things but without some direction it's not really going to help. - TarkisFlux 04:44, October 12, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::: The class was done on the old wiki, also I don't believe this class make a bad rogue level, the only fix needed would be balance=rogue IMO. Although gate worry me a little. --Leziad 04:49, October 12, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::::True enough, and it looks like Ghost stuck wizard on it so Eiji may have no strong interest in what the balance level is. I can just see a few ways to already boost the low level stuff to make it wizard if that was the intent, but I don't really want to get into a discussion on how to best correct it without some sense of what correcting it even means. Eiji, as author, is about the only person in a position to know the intended balance level, but if he doesn't have a strong preference Rogue would be the easiest to fit it to and probably the one we should work towards. - TarkisFlux 05:26, October 12, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::::Indeed I don't. Rogue is ideal but hardly important, a Wizard is fine too. It's not as if Rogue is the magic balance point as Monk-Fighter-Rogue-Wizard is merely a matter of playstyle and not 'goodness' or 'balance' per se. Anyway, indeed, if rogue is easiest, then rogue is shall be. Should I engage the recommended changes I stated above for balance, comments welcome. -- Eiji Hyrule 06:03, October 12, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::::: The only real change that is needed IMO to bring it completely down to rogue level would be changing some of the invocations--any chance of doing that, or are you married to their current forms? For example as far as the strongest ability goes, perhaps instead of Gate you can have Summon Elemental Monolith (CA)? That's a very strong spell, without the cheese that can come from Gate. --Ghostwheel 08:07, October 12, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::::::Maybe. My theme with invocations/sacrifices in general is versatility, which is why I chose gate. XP burning uses aside, it's Greater Plane Shift for every other purpose, and I am very much into the idea of making a walkable portal. I can consider however, something which is basically Travel Gate + the summoning being more like Summon Elemental, something unique perhaps. That would keep the dual purpose portal idea but change the mechanics and remove the worry about super-high HD monsters coming through (though I still think the XP cost is enough of a scare). I'll think about that. :::::::::::::What of the others. There was Etherealness (which I suppose can be Ethereal Jaunt, since party travel is handled by quasi-Gate) and imprisonment which I am not yet convinced is a bad thing to have a save or die, I could simply increase the costs suitably. What say? -- Eiji Hyrule 08:23, October 12, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::::::: I guess that depends--are save-or-dies at will (damage at that, especially that much, is meaningless) rogue-tier or wizard-tier in your book? That's what it comes down to, I think. --Ghostwheel 22:32, October 15, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::::::::: Save or dies provided sufficient cost or limits, rogue (wizard would be wear save or dies are cheap as free, I want to make it cost something dear or make it a risk), while it is at will I would hope the cost would discourage rampant use of it. While I am a bit distracted by Complete Xeno, I will be getting around to it and have decided to up the cost to prevent spamming... if you do, you'll just cripple yourself. Perhaps some ability burn, or a limit on # of possible imprisoned people at once (which means you risk releasing someone who is rather pissed at you if that person has a mind to). Will get to it. -- Eiji Hyrule 02:17, October 16, 2009 (UTC)